• This is theory I just came up with. In episode 8x01, Rick's daughter runs up to him and tells him about the festival, who we all assume to be Judith, but what if it isn't? What if this little girl is actually Gracie (the baby Rick found in 8x02) and Judith died during the war (which would explain why Rick was shown crying in 8x01)?

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    • That would honestly be pretty awesome if it turns out to be true.

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    • I don’t think that will happen. People are invested in Judith, and Rick would have to adopt the baby now. The last thing the show needs is another baby. He doesn’t have time for that, and neither does the show. And Judith dying is taking things too far for no real great reason, especially when the show is still recovering from what it did to Glenn and Abraham.

      The idea of Rick adopting the baby out of guilt is cool on paper, but do we really need that subplot? The show needs to be fixing previous mistakes and focusing on the people we do know and care about, instead of adding random babies to the show.

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    • I was thinking the same thing but the girl is at least 6 so unless there is a 6 year time skip i don't think so. This  could be comic Judith 

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    • I don't think it's Gracie, but I do have to admit that I'm not completely sold on Judith being safe during the war. They introduced Negan to Judith, and although their decisions lately may cause you to question the quality of their writing, I like to think that Negan seeing her still served a purpose. 

      The real reason I guess I should say I have these thoughts, is because I think Rick's "My mercy prevails over my wrath" quote was him forgiving Negan at the end of the war. What he's done to Glenn and Abraham are still definitely still in Rick's mind, but I think Negan has much more deplorable things in store for Rick that will intensify his hatred before this is all over. You have to remember, Glenn & Abraham are but 2 people compared to amount of Saviors that Rick killed before even meeting Negan, and that attack was completely unprovoked. I think Negan will add someone else to his body count (Morgan, Gabriel, Judith, Daryl, etc) significant enough to truly make it an unbelievable decision when Rick decides to forgive Negan. 

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    • HanataSanchou wrote:
      I don't think it's Gracie, but I do have to admit that I'm not completely sold on Judith being safe during the war. They introduced Negan to Judith, and although their decisions lately may cause you to question the quality of their writing, I like to think that Negan seeing her still served a purpose. 

      The real reason I guess I should say I have these thoughts, is because I think Rick's "My mercy prevails over my wrath" quote was him forgiving Negan at the end of the war. What he's done to Glenn and Abraham are still definitely still in Rick's mind, but I think Negan has much more deplorable things in store for Rick that will intensify his hatred before this is all over. You have to remember, Glenn & Abraham are but 2 people compared to amount of Saviors that Rick killed before even meeting Negan, and that attack was completely unprovoked. I think Negan will add someone else to his body count (Morgan, Gabriel, Judith, Daryl, etc) significant enough to truly make it an unbelievable decision when Rick decides to forgive Negan. 

      If Negan/the saviors would kill Judith, I don't think there is much coming back from. Rick wouldn't be able to forgive that. besides his family though, anything goes.

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    • That would be insane, but I hope not. I think it would suit better if it was Judith tbh.

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    • Wwefan2
      Wwefan2 removed this reply because:
      take it back
      05:12, October 31, 2017
      This reply has been removed
    • She was credited as "Six-year old Judith" so..

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    • Wwefan2 wrote:
      This is theory I just came up with. In episode 8x01, Rick's daughter runs up to him and tells him about the festival, who we all assume to be Judith, but what if it isn't? What if this little girl is actually Gracie (the baby Rick found in 8x02) and Judith died during the war (which would explain why Rick was shown crying in 8x01)?

      I doubt in that.

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    • I just noticed something. In 8x01 the girl who we suspect to be Judith is holding a stuffed rabbit in the flash-forward, the same stuffed rabbit in Gracie's crib.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VihE5DhSnw4

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    • Myelle wrote:
      She was credited as "Six-year old Judith" so..

      it could be a lie 

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    • That requires the writers to actually be smart.

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    • Narutorulez wrote:
      Myelle wrote:
      She was credited as "Six-year old Judith" so..
      it could be a lie 

      Why would they lie in the credits XD

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    • Rony419 wrote:

      Narutorulez wrote:
      Myelle wrote:
      She was credited as "Six-year old Judith" so..
      it could be a lie 

      Why would they lie in the credits XD

      Most likely to throw people off.

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    • The 6 year old Judith is holding a rabbit plush that was seen at Gracie's cradle. I do support this theory. This is the kind stuff they need to do for the "twist", and not bringing back old characters because of yes. 

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    • DipsonDP wrote: The 6 year old Judith is holding a rabbit plush that was seen at Gracie's cradle. I do support this theory. This is the kind stuff they need to do for the "twist", and not bringing back old characters because of yes. 

      He might of just taken the rabbit from the crib. Who knows

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    • Myelle wrote:

      DipsonDP wrote: The 6 year old Judith is holding a rabbit plush that was seen at Gracie's cradle. I do support this theory. This is the kind stuff they need to do for the "twist", and not bringing back old characters because of yes. 

      He might of just taken the rabbit from the crib. Who knows

      Indeed, but would they skip an opportunity like this to surprise fans with an unexpected and cool twist?

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    • DipsonDP wrote:
      Myelle wrote:

      DipsonDP wrote: The 6 year old Judith is holding a rabbit plush that was seen at Gracie's cradle. I do support this theory. This is the kind stuff they need to do for the "twist", and not bringing back old characters because of yes. 

      He might of just taken the rabbit from the crib. Who knows
      Indeed, but would they skip an opportunity like this to surprise fans with an unexpected and cool twist?

      Other than being almost unbearably cute, Judith doesn't really bring anything to the show but a plot point for someone to REALLY fuck with Rick's psyche. Also, Rick has all but officially confirmed that Judith isn't actually his. If they truly are going make ghosts from the past a big part of Season 8, this would officially cut the knot on Shane's legacy. Shane was Rick's first antagonist of significant value, so I'd kinda be surprised to not see him talked about this season, and thus what he left behind. I concur that killing Judith would be a huge twist, and plot twists are really all the show has going for it now that we're 8 seasons deep and they don't have much "new" stuff to show us. 

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    • I don’t think it would be a cool twist at all. To kill a child, for shock value, another stupid twist or otherwise? Would that actually impress you? And the majority of fans are fed up of tricks and twists.

      The show has had enough problems, particularly with the tendency of going too far, without adding that into the show. That is harrowing, kind of reminiscent of the unpopular seventh season and probably even worse than the Glenn and Abraham thing because jeez!

      Judith could bring a lot to the show when she gets older. How would a child who has known nothing but this new world, think? Would she want to explore the outside world? What does she make of it? We have only ever known baby Judith, not grown up Judith.

      Fans have watched her grow, they are invested in her. I love her connection to Rick, to Carl, and to the group. This new kid? We know nothing about her family. Do we really want to spend a chunk of this season with Rick feeling sorry for himself, adopting orphaned kids, and him weeping over the death of Judith? How depressing.

      I also don’t agree with the show not having “much new stuff to show us”. There are lots of things the show could still explore, things that are more authentic but the writers are too scared to go there. Guess I will just have to wait and see where the current plot of the comic book is going.

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    • HanataSanchou wrote:

      Other than being almost unbearably cute, Judith doesn't really bring anything to the show but a plot point for someone to REALLY fuck with Rick's psyche. Also, Rick has all but officially confirmed that Judith isn't actually his. If they truly are going make ghosts from the past a big part of Season 8, this would officially cut the knot on Shane's legacy. Shane was Rick's first antagonist of significant value, so I'd kinda be surprised to not see him talked about this season, and thus what he left behind. I concur that killing Judith would be a huge twist, and plot twists are really all the show has going for it now that we're 8 seasons deep and they don't have much "new" stuff to show us. 

      I'm sorry but I really don't support this twist. Judith symbolises the hope for a future and a new generation who would be more adapted to the new world because they didn't know anything about the old one. She's definitely more than just a plot point for Rick's psyche. They also have a lot more new stuff they could show, with enough creativity and thought. :)

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    • Kates39 wrote:

      Judith could bring a lot to the show when she gets older. How would a child who has known nothing but this new world, think? Would she want to explore the outside world? What does she make of it? We have only ever known baby Judith, not grown up Judith.

      Fans have watched her grow, they are invested in her. I love her connection to Rick, to Carl, and to the group. This new kid? We know nothing about her family. Do we really want to spend a chunk of this season with Rick feeling sorry for himself, adopting orphaned kids, and him weeping over the death of Judith? How depressing.

      I also don’t agree with the show not having “much new stuff to show us”. There are lots of things the show could still explore, things that are more authentic but the writers are too scared to go there. Guess I will just have to wait and see where the current plot of the comic book is going.

      Can you become one of the writers please? XD

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    • Dude Sam Anderson straight up got his face ate off. Very fucked up thing for them to do to a kid, and it really didn't seem to serve much of a purpose in the grand scheme of things. Killing him wasn't the big payoff after a huge setup, lead the way for something else, they really did it just to do it. He had a similar amount of potential to Judith - not in that the new world is all he's ever known (though pretty close) but because Carol had those talks with him and it would have been interesting to see what kind of kid he grew up into. It's not about being impressed, or wanting to be shocked, but it could have all kinds of huge implications for the kind of person that Rick turns into as a result of this war. I disagree with: 

      - Majority of fans are fed up with tricks and twists. Who? Since when? Like ever? If the show becomes too predictable or mundane, then people immediately lose interest. Playing with your audience's expectations and not allowing them to get too comfortable with thinking they know exactly what's going to happen next is a core basis for good writing in just about any genre, but especially in horror - drama. 

      - What even is "going too far" anymore? If people dying in gruesome ways is something that's a little too extreme for you, then why are you watching a show/reading a comic about a zombie apocalypse? If it's children being killed, then we've already crossed that line on this show and there's no going back. Judith doesn't have to die in some fucked up gruesome way for it to serve whatever purpose it would serve. There is A LOT more gruesomeness coming to the TV show, just so you know. 

      - "We have only ever known baby Judith, not grown up Judith". Are you serious? Do you seriously see this show going on that long that we're going to explore Judith's adulthood, or hell, even adolescence at that? There's only been one major timeskip, and it was 2 years. Even if the show deviates from that a bit like the flash forward implies and makes it a tad longer, that's still not enough for her to be contributing anything worthwhile to the story. She's a little girl who can't really defend herself, nor does she understand the world enough yet as a child for her thoughts or character development to really matter all that much. A 10-11 year old Judith, or whatever Carl was at the series start, maybe, but they would need to do another major timeskip, which as it stands with the comic storyline, doesn't make any kind of real sense. Please don't cite fans being "invested" in someone as a reason for her not be capable of dying. She did die in the comics you know, and quite early in the story at that. 


      And please, do cite an example of something "new" that the show can give us. Zombies are no longer a "new threat" to learn how to deal with, they only thing that makes them anywhere near the level of danger that they used to be is high numbers. Other people are no longer a "new threat", at this point its just about how many people and guns they have compared to Rick's group. The show continues and continues to follow this theme of whether the living or the dead should be feared more, and it's getting played out. This new arc of them visiting the Commonwealth seems like its going to be more of the same old, falling in with a new group and exploring the mechanics of who can/can't be trusted. The Whisperers were actually pretty interesting while they lasted, due to people wearing zombie suits being something we most likely never considered before as a nuance of this post-apocalyptic world. Once the show goes through that story arc, what else is really going to be "new" to Rick's group? 

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    • HanataSanchou wrote:
      Dude Sam Anderson straight up got his face ate off. Very fucked up thing for them to do to a kid, and it really didn't seem to serve much of a purpose in the grand scheme of things. Killing him wasn't the big payoff after a huge setup, lead the way for something else, they really did it just to do it. He had a similar amount of potential to Judith - not in that the new world is all he's ever known (though pretty close) but because Carol had those talks with him and it would have been interesting to see what kind of kid he grew up into. It's not about being impressed, or wanting to be shocked, but it could have all kinds of huge implications for the kind of person that Rick turns into as a result of this war. I disagree with: 

      - Majority of fans are fed up with tricks and twists. Who? Since when? Like ever? If the show becomes too predictable or mundane, then people immediately lose interest. Playing with your audience's expectations and not allowing them to get too comfortable with thinking they know exactly what's going to happen next is a core basis for good writing in just about any genre, but especially in horror - drama. 

      - What even is "going too far" anymore? If people dying in gruesome ways is something that's a little too extreme for you, then why are you watching a show/reading a comic about a zombie apocalypse? If it's children being killed, then we've already crossed that line on this show and there's no going back. Judith doesn't have to die in some fucked up gruesome way for it to serve whatever purpose it would serve. There is A LOT more gruesomeness coming to the TV show, just so you know. 

      - "We have only ever known baby Judith, not grown up Judith". Are you serious? Do you seriously see this show going on that long that we're going to explore Judith's adulthood, or hell, even adolescence at that? There's only been one major timeskip, and it was 2 years. Even if the show deviates from that a bit like the flash forward implies and makes it a tad longer, that's still not enough for her to be contributing anything worthwhile to the story. She's a little girl who can't really defend herself, nor does she understand the world enough yet as a child for her thoughts or character development to really matter all that much. A 10-11 year old Judith, or whatever Carl was at the series start, maybe, but they would need to do another major timeskip, which as it stands with the comic storyline, doesn't make any kind of real sense. Please don't cite fans being "invested" in someone as a reason for her not be capable of dying. She did die in the comics you know, and quite early in the story at that. 


      And please, do cite an example of something "new" that the show can give us. Zombies are no longer a "new threat" to learn how to deal with, they only thing that makes them anywhere near the level of danger that they used to be is high numbers. Other people are no longer a "new threat", at this point its just about how many people and guns they have compared to Rick's group. The show continues and continues to follow this theme of whether the living or the dead should be feared more, and it's getting played out. This new arc of them visiting the Commonwealth seems like its going to be more of the same old, falling in with a new group and exploring the mechanics of who can/can't be trusted. The Whisperers were actually pretty interesting while they lasted, due to people wearing zombie suits being something we most likely never considered before as a nuance of this post-apocalyptic world. Once the show goes through that story arc, what else is really going to be "new" to Rick's group? 

      Dude why you getting so pissy? He has his opinion and you have yours. And it's ok.

      Sam's story was done once Jessie's storyline was done, which was taken from the comics and imo executed pretty well. His potential was used in that shocking moment for Rick's and Carl's story, and for the purpose of progressing the story as in the comics. Yes the series not always sticks to them, but for the most part they do, and that was an iconic moment in the comics that they couldn't simply pass. Judith potential in the show is much bigger than that because if they wanted to kill her for what you reasoned, they would have done it in the prison, as in the comics. But having her live till now just for her to die here is pointless.

      No one says the show is too gruesome or too much violent. They already crossed all the lines as you said. The only thing that matters if twists are introduced is purpose. It is subjective though so if you think killing Judith will have that purpose it's your opinion. Just please don't berate others for not agreeing with you on that. 

      And by "new stuff" they could give us not just the antagonists that Rick encounters or threats. It can be new and interesting interactions between people, it can be dark subjects and taboos that are introduced, it can be a lot of things other than what you would consider the stereotypical plot being reused. It can even be something that will drive the show to it's end, because it will end eventually. Of course it all requires originality and creativity from the writers, but it can definitely be done. 

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    • This would be an actual twist, one performed how it should be done. No forced situations, no characters revived, plus a new all-time low in human decency if someone kills Judith, cause that is WAY more fucked up than Terminus. From a writer's perspective, i only see benefits and possibilities. Do you need to replace her? Then you have Gracie. Until A New Beginning, there's no need nor purpose for Judith, instead of that of a vicitm. And even in the Comics she wasn't necessary for that arc to develop.

      PD: Of course Negan can't be the one to do it. I would leave that to a desperate Simon, and his subsequent death the reward the fans need for the end of the War.

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    • To HanataSanchou – I want to start by saying I never wanted an argument or to respond to a long post calling me out for things with a post even longer, but you pretty much asked for it, so here goes -

      - Sam served a purpose in the grand scheme of things. We explored a child that was sheltered from the world outside from which he was very afraid. When faced with the reality, he freaked out and froze when he saw another child as a walker. An interesting insight into children in this world.

      The first walker we saw in the show was a little girl. Then there was Lizzie who murdered her sister because of her very messed up view of walkers. Sophia running off and returning as a walker. They have also made out they killed Judith once and how it devastated and shaped Rick. Why the hell would you want to recycle that again?

      Yes, the show has killed children, they served their purpose. They were more grown up and we got very interesting arcs from the interactions and awareness they could have at that age.

      Judith is different. She has a long history with viewers, who love watching her grow and are interested in where the show can take her as she continues to grow in this world.

      The show is yet to explore a baby we have watched be born into this world and growing up in it yet, and Judith is the perfect character for that, not this new random kid named Gracie.

      I find it far more interesting to keep her around than to brutally murder not just another character but a toddler for the sake of making everyone sad again and proving they can. There will be many chances for the show to point out yet again that people die as a result of war. But the brutal Glenn and Abraham ones hurt the show.

      But please, keep advocating for a one year old to be shot, stabbed, eaten by walkers or however you would like it to happen, so Rick can cry over another grave because you think she is more interesting in there while her father adopts some random kid to replace her with. I mean, talk about having “no purpose in the grand scheme of things”.

      - As for the majority of fans, have you seen the thousands of articles and comments out there for the past year? The ratings dipping at an alarming rate that nearly half the viewers have turned off in the past year? The bad reviews, even of this latest ep? The backlash after the trick of the camera with Glenn’s “death” in S6, and so on? The same kind of stories repeating?

      People now know exactly what to expect from The Walking Dead, and that is the problem, and now the show keeps declining at a high rate, with the worst number of people watching the premiere in five years.

      - I don’t mind gruesomeness, but killing a baby to hammer the same message home over and over again is a pathetic waste. Everyone expects the show to be gruesome anyway but did you see the backlash after people watched Glenn get his head smashed in and his eyeball fall out. The Walking Dead was never about gore, it was about the people, and if you think it was because you would assume that from the name of it, think again.

      - By grown up Judith, I meant as a child who has grown up a bit and is walking and talking and observing the world outside. As mentioned above, there is plenty for her to contribute which viewers who watch for things that mean stuff, that bring real substance to the story, will appreciate rather than the minority of people who only watch for the gore and action.

      And the show originally wanted to go on for years with the writers themselves even bringing up an adult Judith but if the show continues at this rate, there will be no one left to watch it. The show has developed a misguided idea that they need brutal action to keep people interested.

      And please stop saying that viewers being invested in things is not a good reason for that to stick around as the facts stated above about ratings proves it does matter. Stop wishing characters to die for the sake of it because you simply want to prove they can yet again. That is lazy writing these days.

      - There is plenty of new things the show can explore. There are ways to make the zombie threat prominent again by exploring the medicine side of things. There has to be scientists who stuck around exploring this thing and even experimenting on them. They should be very protected in this world. Perhaps they could mess up and improve the thing that reanimates the dead.

      The theme of rebuilding the world into one that functions properly and what that would be like instead of knocking them down time and time again with stupid evil groups with fancy names. They could expand Alexandria by reclaiming territory outside that belong to the dead – i.e. taking the world back. Give people a real thing to root for.

      They could return to the cities which are very absent in the story. How about reclaiming that? Exploring a character who becomes unwell or disabled who will not have access to proper care and resources. Exploring a character in a wheelchair trying to adapt to being in the outside world.

      These things make a show more authentic rather than having idiots running around with guns trying to kill each other with bullets that should be in low supply by now. And a tiger who knows exactly who is the on the same side as her and who is not. The Vatos thing in S1 was excellent and very thoughtful.

      And we can just add The Whisperers to the same kind of arc idea really such as The Saviors or The Wolves or The Scavengers and Alpha to Negan and The Governor and Gareth and so on. I think you get the picture. The Commonwealth will probably be the same. We finally agree!

      Kirkman and the show writers love the word The a bit too much these days. The writers seem tired and their imagination mill is breaking down. Sad for a world which had many cool and authentic ways to go.

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    • Kates39 wrote:

      But the brutal Glenn and Abraham ones hurt the show.

      - As for the majority of fans, have you seen the thousands of articles and comments out there for the past year? The ratings dipping at an alarming rate that nearly half the viewers have turned off in the past year? The bad reviews, even of this latest ep? The backlash after the trick of the camera with Glenn’s “death” in S6, and so on? The same kind of stories repeating?

      People now know exactly what to expect from The Walking Dead, and that is the problem, and now the show keeps declining at a high rate, with the worst number of people watching the premiere in five years.


      I agree with pretty much everything, but I don't think Abraham and Glenn's deaths hurt the show that much. Like the scene introducing Negan from the comics needed to happen, and sadly it was Glenns time to go. Abraham was also good for Eugene and Rosita's story. Those deaths progressed the story even if they were very gory, and I think it was worth the backlash from it. The thing I wish they didn't do is the cliffhanger. They should've done it at the end of season 6.

      About the ratings, yes they dropped very drastically, but the low viewership is compared to it's past seasons. If you look at the show as a whole, even with the low ratings it's still has quite the following in millions. So I don't think it's a possibility they would ever cancel the show before it ends. No matter how bad the ratings and reviews are. Whether it will make the writers listen and work harder is debatable.

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    • Rony419 wrote:

      I agree with pretty much everything, but I don't think Abraham and Glenn's deaths hurt the show that much. Like the scene introducing Negan from the comics needed to happen, and sadly it was Glenns time to go. Abraham was also good for Eugene and Rosita's story. Those deaths progressed the story even if they were very gory, and I think it was worth the backlash from it. The thing I wish they didn't do is the cliffhanger. They should've done it at the end of season 6.

      About the ratings, yes they dropped very drastically, but the low viewership is compared to it's past seasons. If you look at the show as a whole, even with the low ratings it's still has quite the following in millions. So I don't think it's a possibility they would ever cancel the show before it ends. No matter how bad the ratings and reviews are. Whether it will make the writers listen and work harder is debatable.

      I don’t think Glenn and Abraham’s deaths are the only reason the show has declined but it certainly didn’t help. I know lots of people who gave up on the show after that, and then lots online of which the overwhelming majority had nothing good to say.

      The ratings dropped a lot from 7x01 to 7x02 and the reviews were terrible and that can’t be ignored. It wasn’t just the deaths themselves or the gore, but how they played it out was a great injustice to that part of the story, and how dragged it out not just from 6x16 to 7x01 but then for the majority of that ep. It was a setup to a dreary season from which the effects are still felt today.

      The idea that the show still has millions watching it doesn’t mean it is immune from cancellation or simply having to end one day just because. The very high drop is alarming and the fact that it continues to drop is not a good sign. I agree the show still has a lot of time ahead but the ratings should be a harsher wake-up call for the writers and for the fans.

      I mean, when the show eventually ends, do you want it to go out with a bang or with a whisper? When people think of the show, will they remember how good it was or how bad it got? When they end it on their own terms, will they have to do it simply because the show has started to run into the ground because less and less people care? A sad way for this show to go.

      Think about it, they went from around 20 million to around 10 million in the short space of a year! And that decline still hasn’t stopped. Ouch! That sucks. They may still have about 10 million, but at this rate it will be 7, then 5. It can happen faster than you think. And the reviews for 8x02 are not good either.

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    • Rony419 wrote:
      Dude why you getting so pissy? He has his opinion and you have yours. And it's ok.

      Sam's story was done once Jessie's storyline was done, which was taken from the comics and imo executed pretty well. His potential was used in that shocking moment for Rick's and Carl's story, and for the purpose of progressing the story as in the comics. Yes the series not always sticks to them, but for the most part they do, and that was an iconic moment in the comics that they couldn't simply pass. Judith potential in the show is much bigger than that because if they wanted to kill her for what you reasoned, they would have done it in the prison, as in the comics. But having her live till now just for her to die here is pointless.

      No one says the show is too gruesome or too much violent. They already crossed all the lines as you said. The only thing that matters if twists are introduced is purpose. It is subjective though so if you think killing Judith will have that purpose it's your opinion. Just please don't berate others for not agreeing with you on that. 

      And by "new stuff" they could give us not just the antagonists that Rick encounters or threats. It can be new and interesting interactions between people, it can be dark subjects and taboos that are introduced, it can be a lot of things other than what you would consider the stereotypical plot being reused. It can even be something that will drive the show to it's end, because it will end eventually. Of course it all requires originality and creativity from the writers, but it can definitely be done. 

      How is me disagreeing and stating why "getting pissy"? The point of it was to have a discussion, and he challenged me first. If you don't want a discussion, then don't directly challenge someone else's thought's with your own counter argument. Wanting to have a discussion does't somehow mean that I don't understand that it's ok to have differing opinions. Whats the point then of having a forum? I didn't disrespect him, I didn't directly call him wrong, or "berate" him like you claim. All I did was point out what I disagreed with. Chill out. He's the one who said killing Judith would be "going too far", and it's way too late for the show to "go too far". Even you acknowledged yourself that the show has already crossed that line of killing a child. 

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    • Kates39 wrote:
      To HanataSanchou – I want to start by saying I never wanted an argument or to respond to a long post calling me out for things with a post even longer, but you pretty much asked for it, so here goes -

      Don't challenge someone else thoughts if you don't want to be challenged yourself. You started this first remember? My post was actually agreeing with Dipson, you decided that you had disagreements. Which is fine, it's a forum, we're supposed to discuss our views on the show, whether they're the same or not. 

      - Sam served a purpose in the grand scheme of things. We explored a child that was sheltered from the world outside from which he was very afraid. When faced with the reality, he freaked out and froze when he saw another child as a walker. An interesting insight into children in this world.

      The first walker we saw in the show was a little girl. Then there was Lizzie who murdered her sister because of her very messed up view of walkers. Sophia running off and returning as a walker. They have also made out they killed Judith once and how it devastated and shaped Rick. Why the hell would you want to recycle that again?

      Yes, the show has killed children, they served their purpose. They were more grown up and we got very interesting arcs from the interactions and awareness they could have at that age.

      You acknowledge that it's ok to kill a kid if it serves a purpose.....so again remind why klling Judith is "going too far"? And please don't speak as if I WANT this to happen, I simply said it was a possibility that isn't above the writers to do. I'm not sold it being 100% impossible to happen. Doesn't mean I WANT it to. They teased Glenn being dead, then actually did it.....or have you forgotten that? 

      Judith is different. She has a long history with viewers, who love watching her grow and are interested in where the show can take her as she continues to grow in this world.

      The show is yet to explore a baby we have watched be born into this world and growing up in it yet, and Judith is the perfect character for that, not this new random kid named Gracie.

      I find it far more interesting to keep her around than to brutally murder not just another character but a toddler for the sake of making everyone sad again and proving they can. There will be many chances for the show to point out yet again that people die as a result of war. But the brutal Glenn and Abraham ones hurt the show.

      But please, keep advocating for a one year old to be shot, stabbed, eaten by walkers or however you would like it to happen, so Rick can cry over another grave because you think she is more interesting in there while her father adopts some random kid to replace her with. I mean, talk about having “no purpose in the grand scheme of things”.

      Having a "long history" with viewers doesn't make someone immune to being killed off, nor does being a kid. We keep coming back to this point for whatever reason. And there is literally nothing about what you claim is so unique to Judith's situation that doesn't also apply to Gracie, aside from how long we've known her. She's still a baby, and this world will be all she's ever known. Once again, I never said that she has to be "brutally" murdered for her death to serve it's purpose, nor does that purpose have to be "shock value" or "making everyone sad". Quit fucking putting words in my mouth and claiming that I'm "advocating" the shit. Once again, all I said it's not impossible for them to do it, considering that she brings literally nothing else to this show other than this "new perspective" you seem to treat like a writing goldmine. The show would have to go through one hell of a timeskip for her perspective to matter for any reason whatsoever, which is so far seemingly unlikely.

      - As for the majority of fans, have you seen the thousands of articles and comments out there for the past year? The ratings dipping at an alarming rate that nearly half the viewers have turned off in the past year? The bad reviews, even of this latest ep? The backlash after the trick of the camera with Glenn’s “death” in S6, and so on? The same kind of stories repeating?

      People now know exactly what to expect from The Walking Dead, and that is the problem, and now the show keeps declining at a high rate, with the worst number of people watching the premiere in five years.

      Did I not literally just point out that people being able to predict the show means that it's bad writing? Therefore good writing is the only thing that can save it.....which means things that fans can't predict, or figure out from logging in to The Spoiling Dead all the time. I'm really getting tired of having to repeat my same points because you are twisting my words, or not reading them altogether. 

      - I don’t mind gruesomeness, but killing a baby to hammer the same message home over and over again is a pathetic waste. Everyone expects the show to be gruesome anyway but did you see the backlash after people watched Glenn get his head smashed in and his eyeball fall out. The Walking Dead was never about gore, it was about the people, and if you think it was because you would assume that from the name of it, think again.

      - By grown up Judith, I meant as a child who has grown up a bit and is walking and talking and observing the world outside. As mentioned above, there is plenty for her to contribute which viewers who watch for things that mean stuff, that bring real substance to the story, will appreciate rather than the minority of people who only watch for the gore and action.

      And the show originally wanted to go on for years with the writers themselves even bringing up an adult Judith but if the show continues at this rate, there will be no one left to watch it. The show has developed a misguided idea that they need brutal action to keep people interested.

      And please stop saying that viewers being invested in things is not a good reason for that to stick around as the facts stated above about ratings proves it does matter. Stop wishing characters to die for the sake of it because you simply want to prove they can yet again. That is lazy writing these days.

      You're not on the writing staff, so can't speak as if you actually know the motivations behind what they write. You can't sit here and say they are using brutality to try to keep people interested, or that "ratings" are going to be their deciding factor on whether someone dies or not. There are plenty of people on this show that have died while fans were "invested" in them, so once again, that is not the end-all-be-all to keep someone alive or dead. If you're going to quit watching a show because someone you cared about died, then were you truly a fan of the SHOW, or that specific character? It's a zombie apocalypse, and everyone is going to meet their end sooner or later. Ratings and people's feeling aren't going to change that. 

      - There is plenty of new things the show can explore. There are ways to make the zombie threat prominent again by exploring the medicine side of things. There has to be scientists who stuck around exploring this thing and even experimenting on them. They should be very protected in this world. Perhaps they could mess up and improve the thing that reanimates the dead.

      Kirkman stated quite some time ago that there will never be a cure or vaccine, so no. Just no. This show will NEVER explore the "science" behind how any of this works. 

      The theme of rebuilding the world into one that functions properly and what that would be like instead of knocking them down time and time again with stupid evil groups with fancy names. They could expand Alexandria by reclaiming territory outside that belong to the dead – i.e. taking the world back. Give people a real thing to root for.

      They could return to the cities which are very absent in the story. How about reclaiming that? Exploring a character who becomes unwell or disabled who will not have access to proper care and resources. Exploring a character in a wheelchair trying to adapt to being in the outside world.

      Rebuilding the world is not a "new" theme. Claiming territory that was once overrun by zombies was already done with the prison arc. Sherry's sister was a diabetic, who had to work her ass off or marry Negan just to get her insulin. There was no avenue for proper childbirth with Lori, and we saw the group needing to scavenge for formula and toys for Judith since hospitals and maternity sections of stores were no longer a thing. Heath gets his leg blown off in the comics, and the community has to improvise to keep him alive. He has to walk around with a crutch now in the comics. I'm so done with this. 

      These things make a show more authentic rather than having idiots running around with guns trying to kill each other with bullets that should be in low supply by now. And a tiger who knows exactly who is the on the same side as her and who is not. The Vatos thing in S1 was excellent and very thoughtful.

      And we can just add The Whisperers to the same kind of arc idea really such as The Saviors or The Wolves or The Scavengers and Alpha to Negan and The Governor and Gareth and so on. I think you get the picture. The Commonwealth will probably be the same. We finally agree!

      Kirkman and the show writers love the word The a bit too much these days. The writers seem tired and their imagination mill is breaking down. Sad for a world which had many cool and authentic ways to go.


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    • HanataSanchou wrote:

      How is me disagreeing and stating why "getting pissy"? The point of it was to have a discussion, and he challenged me first. If you don't want a discussion, then don't directly challenge someone else's thought's with your own counter argument. Wanting to have a discussion does't somehow mean that I don't understand that it's ok to have differing opinions. Whats the point then of having a forum? I didn't disrespect him, I didn't directly call him wrong, or "berate" him like you claim. All I did was point out what I disagreed with. Chill out. He's the one who said killing Judith would be "going too far", and it's way too late for the show to "go too far". Even you acknowledged yourself that the show has already crossed that line of killing a child. 

      The vibes I got from your arguments were a little berating. Like if you were explaining them to a child who doesn't know what his talking about. If you didn't mean it that way, I'm sorry.

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    • Kates39 wrote:

      The ratings dropped a lot from 7x01 to 7x02 and the reviews were terrible and that can’t be ignored. It wasn’t just the deaths themselves or the gore, but how they played it out was a great injustice to that part of the story, and how dragged it out not just from 6x16 to 7x01 but then for the majority of that ep. It was a setup to a dreary season from which the effects are still felt today.

      The idea that the show still has millions watching it doesn’t mean it is immune from cancellation or simply having to end one day just because. The very high drop is alarming and the fact that it continues to drop is not a good sign. I agree the show still has a lot of time ahead but the ratings should be a harsher wake-up call for the writers and for the fans.

      I mean, when the show eventually ends, do you want it to go out with a bang or with a whisper? When people think of the show, will they remember how good it was or how bad it got? When they end it on their own terms, will they have to do it simply because the show has started to run into the ground because less and less people care? A sad way for this show to go.

      Think about it, they went from around 20 million to around 10 million in the short space of a year! And that decline still hasn’t stopped. Ouch! That sucks. They may still have about 10 million, but at this rate it will be 7, then 5. It can happen faster than you think. And the reviews for 8x02 are not good either.

      Yes, the way they played the deaths out was the problem, but imo the execution of the deaths themselves was good. Glenn's death was identical to his comic counterpart. The people who left the show just for it getting too gory or that scene being too much was a little bit ridiculous to me. But other than that the other reasons are quite valid. 

      Of course I want the show to go out on a bang, the reason I watched it till now is because I remember it for all the good stuff it did and still hold true to that. It's just a question if the writers have enough respect to give it the justice it deserve because it is a good show. I really hope they listen to the reviews, and go from there. Though I personally think that episode 2 wasn't so bad lol.

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    • I am happy to have a discussion with people like Romy419 who respond properly but this has turned into an argument – you are responding to Romy in the same way - which is not what I set out to have.

      I had originally responded to the person who posted this thread with my valid thoughts, which they asked for, and then you decided to challenge me in the way you have and here we are.

      I simply love the character of Judith and would love to see her fulfil a real plot of substance as she gets older and starts to explore the world, instead of Gracie. In my personal opinion, it would be a waste to simply kill her for the sake of making the point again that no one is safe in this world, even children.

      We have watched Rick and Carl and co deal with her apparent death before and it was sad. To kill her again is yet another plot recycled which is also akin to the Glenn fake out in S6 and then the actual death.

      I would love to see the show explore a more hopeful theme that it has promised which could restore good reviews and ratings. The death of Judith who they once described as representing hope would not bring that. I agree the show takes place in a dreary world but bad things happening should not be the focus of the show.

      I think the concept of killing a baby is a bit too far. She is not a child who gets in the way. I personally would prefer the show not to go down the root of having a toddler killed even for the point of proving it could happen.

      I remember what a reviewer once called Glenn Gate! The fake death and then the whole thing where he lived and then he died again. I watch the show acknowledging it can be gory but up until then the show was not in your face gore. It was a shock for a lot of people and a lot of them stopped watching.

      I never said having a long history with the show makes a person immune. But it is nice to keep around characters who people are invested in them for the sake of the show. Imagine if they killed Daryl! There was a petition about that. It keeps viewers interested and for me I think Judith has a lot of potential in the long term future of the show and I would love to explore that.

      Killing a baby is brutal, whether she is shot, stabbed, crushed or however you imagine it could happen. This world will the only thing she has ever known and I would love to explore her perspective of it. You said her death could develop the characters such as Rick and I am saying I do not love the idea of him being a grieving father again crying over her grave.

      I mentioned shock factor because that is what a lot of people have made out would be exciting about that happening. Her death would make people sad. I would prefer another route. Judith might not bring much to the show right now but a young child the age of the little girl in the apparent time skip here could bring a lot to show in the way that other children have.

      You talk as though Judith will remain a child of nearly two forever! But you agreed that the young girl could be Gracie who is younger than Judith which would need a larger time skip. Judith could bring what you are saying Gracie could bring to the show.

      You asked me what I meant by the majority of fans and I told you what I meant. I apologise if the answer made you feel like you had to apparently repeat yourself but you asked me what I meant and I told you.

      I never said I knew the writing team and why they write what they do but I have watched the show for seven years and followed the interviews of the staff and made my conclusions from them about what kind of show they have put out there and it has always been about the characters rather than shocking action gore.

      The Walking Dead is a show and like every show, knowing and writing what the majority of their target audience would like is a big part of that. Glenn was my favourite character for six years and I never stopped because he died. The thing that puts me off a show is how they tell the story.

      By the science of how it works, I never said I wanted a cure. Kirkman actually said very recently that he knows how it works and hinted that he would only ever consider telling at the end of the comic books. But I would love to see people trying to study this thing and perhaps experiment on zombies which in a world like this I would expect people to be doing.

      By reclaiming the world, I meant expanding Alexandria. I meant more of the world – not a specific location. I am tired as many people are of the whole - there is peace – evil people with fancy names wreck the place – there is a fight or war – people die because they can - rebuild – and then repeat.

      I was talking to another fan the other day who has not read the comics and they asked me whether The Saviors are the end of that kind of arc. His face dropped when I said The Whisperers and Alpha are next. There are other arcs to explore in this kind of world!

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    • Rony419 wrote:

      Kates39 wrote:

      The ratings dropped a lot from 7x01 to 7x02 and the reviews were terrible and that can’t be ignored. It wasn’t just the deaths themselves or the gore, but how they played it out was a great injustice to that part of the story, and how dragged it out not just from 6x16 to 7x01 but then for the majority of that ep. It was a setup to a dreary season from which the effects are still felt today.

      The idea that the show still has millions watching it doesn’t mean it is immune from cancellation or simply having to end one day just because. The very high drop is alarming and the fact that it continues to drop is not a good sign. I agree the show still has a lot of time ahead but the ratings should be a harsher wake-up call for the writers and for the fans.

      I mean, when the show eventually ends, do you want it to go out with a bang or with a whisper? When people think of the show, will they remember how good it was or how bad it got? When they end it on their own terms, will they have to do it simply because the show has started to run into the ground because less and less people care? A sad way for this show to go.

      Think about it, they went from around 20 million to around 10 million in the short space of a year! And that decline still hasn’t stopped. Ouch! That sucks. They may still have about 10 million, but at this rate it will be 7, then 5. It can happen faster than you think. And the reviews for 8x02 are not good either.

      Yes, the way they played the deaths out was the problem, but imo the execution of the deaths themselves was good. Glenn's death was identical to his comic counterpart. The people who left the show just for it getting too gory or that scene being too much was a little bit ridiculous to me. But other than that the other reasons are quite valid. 

      Of course I want the show to go out on a bang, the reason I watched it till now is because I remember it for all the good stuff it did and still hold true to that. It's just a question if the writers have enough respect to give it the justice it deserve because it is a good show. I really hope they listen to the reviews, and go from there. Though I personally think that episode 2 wasn't so bad lol.

      I think the impact of the deaths was okay but the way they played it out was terrible. I hope they learn from that which is the only thing we can ask of them now lol.

      I’m the same. I rewatched the earlier seasons before this one started. I just remember how good the show can be, and know that if they can find that spark again it will be great! The reviews are important and they just aren’t getting good ones which sucks.

      I thought 8x02 was okay in parts, but a lot of things failed to add up and I was kind of like, I know they can do better than that.

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    • DipsonDP wrote:
      This would be an actual twist, one performed how it should be done. No forced situations, no characters revived, plus a new all-time low in human decency if someone kills Judith, cause that is WAY more fucked up than Terminus. From a writer's perspective, i only see benefits and possibilities. Do you need to replace her? Then you have Gracie. Until A New Beginning, there's no need nor purpose for Judith, instead of that of a vicitm. And even in the Comics she wasn't necessary for that arc to develop.

      PD: Of course Negan can't be the one to do it. I would leave that to a desperate Simon, and his subsequent death the reward the fans need for the end of the War.

      I find it much easier to just quote this, rather than keep repeating myself or read another essay of us having the exact same argument over and over again. It's irritating at this point and I'm going to save my energy. Funny no one took the time to address this, yet they want to jump on me for stating my reasons for agreeing with Dipson in the first place. Never once said anything about what kind of twist it would be - good or bad - simply that it would be a twist that no one is expecting. People aren't tuning in on a weekly basis because they're like "man, can't wait to see what Judith does this week!" She's literally had one word of dialogue, and does nothing but be a cute baby. You're putting WAYYYY to much value on this "hope for a new generation". Even if Gracie DOESN'T end up being something that the show explores, there's still Maggie's future baby which will bring this "hope", and there will probably be plenty more kids that come into the fold. Hope for the future isn't something specifically unique to Judith, you're just in your feelings because you've seen her for so long and got attached. Which happens in a show like this, no one's knocking that, but once again, that doesn't mean she's safe. The only thing remotely interesting about her regarding the plot right now, is whether she dies or not. Her "perspective" means absolute zero to the show until she's old enough to be someone who's perspective matters, hence right now she serves as little more than a plot point. Even then, she's still just gonna be a kid that can't properly defend herself until she gets MUCH older. That's when people will care about Judith. But she needs to make it there, which will take a LONG time. 

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    • HanataSanchou wrote:

      I find it much easier to just quote this, rather than keep repeating myself or read another essay of us having the exact same argument over and over again. It's irritating at this point and I'm going to save my energy. Funny no one took the time to address this, yet they want to jump on me for stating my reasons for agreeing with Dipson in the first place. Never once said anything about what kind of twist it would be - good or bad - simply that it would be a twist that no one is expecting. People aren't tuning in on a weekly basis because they're like "man, can't wait to see what Judith does this week!" She's literally had one word of dialogue, and does nothing but be a cute baby. You're putting WAYYYY to much value on this "hope for a new generation". Even if Gracie DOESN'T end up being something that the show explores, there's still Maggie's future baby which will bring this "hope", and there will probably be plenty more kids that come into the fold. Hope for the future isn't something specifically unique to Judith, you're just in your feelings because you've seen her for so long and got attached. Which happens in a show like this, no one's knocking that, but once again, that doesn't mean she's safe. The only thing remotely interesting about her regarding the plot right now, is whether she dies or not. Her "perspective" means absolute zero to the show until she's old enough to be someone who's perspective matters, hence right now she serves as little more than a plot point. Even then, she's still just gonna be a kid that can't properly defend herself until she gets MUCH older. That's when people will care about Judith. But she needs to make it there, which will take a LONG time. 

      Judith is not unique in representing hope for the future, but people are invested in her. Seeing her die just to be replaced with Gracie will be disappointing imo, and a bad twist. Yes we got attached to her, that is the reason it will be disappointing to us and kind of insulting if replaced by some random baby who don't mean that much. People care about Judith now, she doesn't need to be older or talk for someone to care for her as a character. That is the point of the discussion you feel becoming repetitive. But if you truly getting irritated from this, you don't need to continue. I got what you were saying and respect that.  

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    • HanataSanchou wrote:

      DipsonDP wrote:
      This would be an actual twist, one performed how it should be done. No forced situations, no characters revived, plus a new all-time low in human decency if someone kills Judith, cause that is WAY more fucked up than Terminus. From a writer's perspective, i only see benefits and possibilities. Do you need to replace her? Then you have Gracie. Until A New Beginning, there's no need nor purpose for Judith, instead of that of a vicitm. And even in the Comics she wasn't necessary for that arc to develop.

      PD: Of course Negan can't be the one to do it. I would leave that to a desperate Simon, and his subsequent death the reward the fans need for the end of the War.

      I find it much easier to just quote this, rather than keep repeating myself or read another essay of us having the exact same argument over and over again. It's irritating at this point and I'm going to save my energy. Funny no one took the time to address this, yet they want to jump on me for stating my reasons for agreeing with Dipson in the first place. Never once said anything about what kind of twist it would be - good or bad - simply that it would be a twist that no one is expecting. People aren't tuning in on a weekly basis because they're like "man, can't wait to see what Judith does this week!" She's literally had one word of dialogue, and does nothing but be a cute baby. You're putting WAYYYY to much value on this "hope for a new generation". Even if Gracie DOESN'T end up being something that the show explores, there's still Maggie's future baby which will bring this "hope", and there will probably be plenty more kids that come into the fold. Hope for the future isn't something specifically unique to Judith, you're just in your feelings because you've seen her for so long and got attached. Which happens in a show like this, no one's knocking that, but once again, that doesn't mean she's safe. The only thing remotely interesting about her regarding the plot right now, is whether she dies or not. Her "perspective" means absolute zero to the show until she's old enough to be someone who's perspective matters, hence right now she serves as little more than a plot point. Even then, she's still just gonna be a kid that can't properly defend herself until she gets MUCH older. That's when people will care about Judith. But she needs to make it there, which will take a LONG time. 

      I want the argument to end with this. I never jumped on you, you jumped on me for disagreeing with the theory. You addressed me directly first.

      I really don’t understand why you have such a problem with me loving the character of Judith and what she can bring to the story in the future, especially now that AMC are saying they would want to continue the series for decades.

      I know it’s not the main focus of the show. I don’t tune in every week to find out what she is up to but she is part of the story and the lives of the characters. It is a nice little addition to the show.

      The main part of my argument is this - I like Judith. There are potential storylines beyond killing her. I simply pointed that potential out and how I would love to see that instead. She doesn’t have to be just a victim.

      She or Gracie will still only be a child in the time jump but there is a big difference between the interactions and awareness a 2 year old can have compared to even a six or seven year old.

      Why can’t Judith have the role Gracie would have in this scenario? I prefer that because I love tracing the journey of characters from as early as possible. People are invested in Judith. There is nothing wrong with that. Seeing her die and then be replaced kinda sucks once you get over the “twist” of her death. It is just a waste in the long term.

      Seriously, that valid opinion is not worth getting that wound up about!

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    • Currently, this theory makes a lot of sense, but I think it's misdirection. With the grand lesson of this season being that Rick will learn that all actions have conciquences, he will inevitably spare Negan as his 'mercy prevails over his wrath'. I don't see how Judith dying will fit into the picture. Perhaps Gracie will die because of Rick's actions, and the teddy is passed down? 

      We've invested too much time into a character who has given very little back, so while it would be shocking, I think it would be a huge waste of story potencial to bait-and-swich a little girl. Plus, as Judith gets to say more, there's way more interesting ways to go with her. She'll wonder why Michonne isn't like her dispite being her 'mum', why Carl's eye is missing, and eventually we'll get to the Shane question. It's all more story potencial than some random girl being told her dad was killed by her new dad. It's pretty messed up tbh actually. Judith will only now get interesting, and I don't think the show is going to have her do nothing for five seasons only to die. 

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    • Agreed with the idea that the season is trying to trick viewers into thinking one thing is true with obvious clues, but is planning to surprise everyone with the truth.

      For me, I think it is likely that Carl will die instead. Chandler is going to college and taking other roles. I thought it was strange how in the dream or future, whichever you prefer, we never actually saw Carl’s face when we saw everyone else’s.

      And the pay-off from Carl’s death and how that happened will be better, because he is very prominent in the story and he has a better chance of shaping the future outlook of Rick because that better world fits in with what we know Carl would want.

      A nice way for his memory to stick around, although personally I love the Grimes family and would prefer them to bump off another major character outside the family lol. One of the writers recently felt like they had to point out again that the show isn’t afraid to deviate from the comics, and Carl’s death would of course be a major change.

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    • Kates39 wrote:
      I also don’t agree with the show not having “much new stuff to show us”. There are lots of things the show could still explore, things that are more authentic but the writers are too scared to go there. Guess I will just have to wait and see where the current plot of the comic book is going.

      The point where YOU started this, a direct quote from my post which had NOTHING to do with you.

      - NEVER said I had a "problem" with you liking Judith. You made that up completely out of nowhere. 

      - Never said I had a problem with your opinion, or you having a different one than mine. For whatever reason, you felt the need to argue me down over the simple fact that Judith dying is POSSIBLE. Not that it was going to happen, not the actual odds of it happening, just me simply saying the shit was POSSIBLE. There are a VERY select few people on this show that are immune to dying right now, and I choose to believe that Judith is not one of them, based on the reasons I have stated, and Dipson has stated. The mere possibiblity of that seems to stir you up so much that you feel the need to argue me down because SOMEHOW, me believing that she CAN die also seems to mean that I can't also see her living as valid. Me thinking that she can die, and me thinking that she can live for the same reasons you do are not mutually exclusive. 

      Now please go annoy someone else. 

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    • Seriously? Your final line in the above post just proves the kind of approach you have brought to this discussion.

      The idea that I started to argue you down is insane. When you post on here, your comment has everything to do with the other people looking for a nice discussion. I only personally addressed you nicely on that one line and you took it as a personal slight against you.

      I mean, you were highlighting every part of my post and responding in a way that might have well been put in capitals (which you have now started to do) which is not the way to approach a discussion. And then arguing with other people who pointed that out too?

      Yes, it is possible she might die. I never said it wasn’t. I just shared my thoughts on why I would prefer that not to happen. You also decided to argue against my personal thoughts on the ratings and reviews of the show of which the overwhelming majority of fans agree that the show is not the best it can be. That wasn’t addressed to you personally but you responded. You only need to look at the reviews and ratings to see that is right.

      But this is getting stupid now. I was done with the argument and you were the one who continued to stir it up. How about we just agree that you think it is possible she could die, which is valid, and I would prefer that not to happen, which is also valid and call it a stalemate because now we are just arguing about arguing?

      But I have to say, I love that theory about Carl being the one to die. It makes a lot of sense, would have a real kind of impact and would be what a lot of people really won’t think will happen. That would shake up the story and be worthwhile! But he is one of my favourites and a part of me would be devastated lol.

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    • Kates39 wrote:

      But I have to say, I love that theory about Carl being the one to die. It makes a lot of sense, would have a real kind of impact and would be what a lot of people really won’t think will happen. That would shake up the story and be worthwhile! But he is one of my favourites and a part of me would be devastated lol.

      Thanks! I love Carl too but a major character has to go and Carl would make great sense and it will resonate better in both the short and long term. It makes sense with what a lot of the writers are saying and hinting at and the role Carl plays could never be replaced which I think it important. That way it really matters in the grand scheme of things. It wouldn’t be a waste which I think the other theory is.

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    • you know what.... judith is going to take carls role in the future! it all makes sense! they've been keeping her alive since the prison for a good reason! chandler is getting too old for this role so that is why carl will die! Judith will take his place.

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    • Judith simply can't fill the void Carl's death would leave. And i'm talking about all the story archs. As Kirkman said, Carl will live on even when Rick's dead, cause it is his story. If they kill him in the MSF, i will simply stop watching it.

      And i'm saying this from pure disbelief, they simply can't do it without drastically changing every single consequent storyline, and the one's yet to come.

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    • Wwefan2 wrote:
      This is theory I just came up with.

      you liar you did not come up with this theory, you saw it on youtube like the rest of us. 

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    • EvenStrangerThings
      EvenStrangerThings removed this reply because:
      gave me aids
      20:32, November 6, 2017
      This reply has been removed
    • LastofUsInfected wrote:
      you know what.... judith is going to take carls role in the future! it all makes sense! they've been keeping her alive since the prison for a good reason! chandler is getting too old for this role so that is why carl will die! Judith will take his place.

      yeah, rick looks alot older in the flashforwards, way more time than 2 years has passed, giving judith a chance to grow up and become coral 2.0

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    • The time-skip is around 5 years in the show. Judith was born like a year ago, and the credits say that girl (Which they called Judith, either because it's her or because we think it's her) is 6 years old.

      Unless she's Gracie, then it would be around 6 years. 

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    • DipsonDP wrote:
      The time-skip is around 5 years in the show. Judith was born like a year ago, and the credits say that girl (Which they called Judith, either because it's her or because we think it's her) is 6 years old.

      Unless she's Gracie, then it would be around 6 years. 

      I think its more than 5 years, im thinking about mabey 10, and if ur wondering why Michonne dont look 10 years older/ well black folks have amazing skin, Denzel washington is 63 ffs!

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    • i thnik he means carl will take ricks role in the comics, not the show.........

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    • im still pissed abt carl tho still we havent seen his death yet, whether we get closure or not. they could off judith in s8finale. kids supposed 2b dead since s3premiere well basically the episode where lori died. or when governor raided the prison and lily died instead. taras sister is alive in the novels man. anyway, if carls truly dead. then two storyarcs w/him against negan&alpha was wiped from the series via the comics. negans meant to take carl from rick and turn him into a savior during the all out war but somehow kid gets bit and dies after he cudv twice b4 when he was shot both times and lived, so alphas meant to take carl during the first whisperers war bc carl has a crush on her daughter, lydia and its around that time negans become ricks prisoner, who else is going in morgans cell aside from dwight &other saviors, like 2c simon be put in there w/negan though. (if memory serves) so yeah this is getting ridiculous. killing off all the kids is one thing, then they'd have to confirm nicholas' son mikey is also dead too. the actor (elijah) hasnt been seen since "thank you" or better yet, not since s5finale so tbh those 2carls arcs can only work w/enid well enid could still well be lydia, then they'll be a reason for alpha to come in early than expected to. alpha could masquarading as an alexandrian like the comics had her, then enid is missing at the hilltop, bc whisperers told her her own mother was at ricks place. if carls gone, and enid is actually lydia in disguise, i wouldnt mind knowing that it was enid who brought alpha to tAOW bc her bf died &enid blames negan, so it could be like a role reversal from the comics on the show, instead of negan killing alpha, its her to him OMG i know it was shown enids parents were killed, but for we all know they were whisperers unmasked and were protecting her from alpha, kinda like dwight&sherry 2.0 thing but the couple died, enid is the only kid worth watchn now🤣

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    • That very well could have been Gracie. Remember in 08x01 Rick is standing over two graves. 1 is clearly going to be Carl, but who is the other grave????

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    • Do you really think the writers would needlessly kill off both of Rick's children, and within eps of each other too? A lot of you have insane ideas - even crazier than Scott Gimple at times and that's saying things.

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    • A FANDOM user
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