• KeepOnKeepingOn
    KeepOnKeepingOn closed this thread because:
    hnnnngjfqhjbd
    20:26, June 2, 2019

    Carl in the comics has gotten better since his tv counterpart's demise, i think intentionally too. Because i think i speak for alot of fans when I say I always loved Tv Carl 10x more than his comic counterpart. Tv Carl was just a better, more developed character with a 10x more tolerable personality. Comic Carl in contrast was edgy, strange, self absorbed and a fucking homicidal brat for most of the series. He only got tolerable once they mellowed him out, made him realize the errors in his selfish ways and made him look more like later series Tv Carl, they essentially made him show Carl in the comics which is why hes tolerable now. Comic Carl was an awful character with forced, awkward, strange development and the brattiest, most entitled behavior. He gives a fucking speech about how he's pissed Rick didn't "protect" him enough to not let his eye get shot out and how hes all jealous and edgy and uncomfortable with how famous Rick is. Like What the fuck kind of forced shit is this you little brat, what the fuck do you have to complain about any of that? Your father saved your life a million times and he built a new, civilized world for you to live in. Selfish brat didn't even care, as long as he can bang the hot blonde girl. Tv Carl in season 8, despite it being a random, forced development, was actually extremely likeable, i loved and agreed with his ideas about the future and his moral mentoring of his broken Father. In his last two episodes he gave genuine, beautiful performances and said alot of truths. He was killed off literally just because Gimple wanted Rick's sudden comic born development to spare Negan feel more natural. What a fucking waste of the 10x better counterpart of the character whom The Walking Dead series is supposed to be about. It's Carl's story as said by Kirkman. You may give me shit about how Chandler admitted he was a bad actor at times but I honestly dont agree, Kirkman himself said Carl was his favorite in the tv series. The story in the tv series was always 10x better for me, though i never didn't love the comics as well. Right up until Carl's death this was true. Carl's stupid, unnecessary demise, used for pure shock value, ratings, and a forced development that Rick really didn't need, atleast not in that way, with that sacrifice to the show, to do what he did with Negan was clearly the straw that broke the Camel's back for Andrew. He wanted to leave to be with his family, but he wasn't willing to force the show to deal with something like that, such a giant change from the comics right up until they shit right on the main purpose of the comic's with Carl's death. He finally had enough and said "fuck it, im asking to finally get out to be with my family." Had Carl not been killed I don't think Rick would have left, though if Carl lived and Rick left, it would work 10x better for the story, as a living Carl forced to lead Alexandria at a young age and take up his father's mantle, perhaps befriending Hendry and maybe becoming somewhat of a de-facto father to his much younger half-sister Judith. If Rick had to leave, I love what they did with it so much, but it doesnt excuse Carl's death, especially when I just showed how Carl remaining if Rick left would be so good for the story. Not to mention its a pretty decent bet that they both might be still on the show had Carl not been randomly kicked off. Regardless of all these mistakes, they just don't learn. I love everything Kang did in Season 9 with what she was given by Gimple, especially mortally wounded Rick's saving by a helicopter. But she made one unforgivable, Gimple level autistic mistake. Henry. Henry took up a large part of Carl's comic story and I honestly loved it, I don't get people hating him. I found him fair, reserved, non-forced, extremely likeable, relatable and just a very good character. I loved how Carol and Ezekiel raised him as their own child as well. He was a great character in my opinion, reminding me of the best parts of Tv Series Carl. I saw him being a huge part in later stories and even being much more of an active character than Comic Carl in later volumes, the future looked so bright. But Kang killed him off. Our new Carl that i was just coming to terms with and happily welcoming was killed tf off. Why? Then the next episode they weaken and derail the character of Ezekiel who i like as well but it's like they spared him just to make him into a villian or something so they can kill him off early in S10. Henry could have done so much more for the series and became an integral part of the show. I wanted Henry and Daryl to be a defacto Rick and Carl, I wanted the amazing development between them we saw all season to continue, but no. Cut short for.. shock value.. to make Carol miserable and broken again, to depress everyone. Such a fucking waste. On both Tv Carl and Henry's part. A god damn waste. The only thing keeping me watching the tv series is knowing Tv Series Rick, who yes, I believe is the best Rick Grimes in the walking dead universe and amazing compared to his comic counterpart who is not bad at all himself, is alive and might even reappear in the main series as well as his three movies he has been confirmed to live through all three.

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    • I mean yeah, Carl's death really irked me, but I'm fine with Henry's. He existed to be a plot device to catalyst the Whisperer War. He had reason to die. Carl didn't.

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    • KeepOnKeepingOn wrote:
      I mean yeah, Carl's death really irked me, but I'm fine with Henry's. He existed to be a plot device to catalyst the Whisperer War. He had reason to die. Carl didn't.

      Henry had amazing development with every character, especially Daryl and i saw him becoming such a major point of the show in the later games and filling the alot of Carl's roles as Daryl is for Rick rn. Who do we have now? We have a lonely Daryl, Lydia, Carol and a soon to be gone Michonne. Its not enough. It could only work if Carl or Henry was still alive.

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    • Kapitalgermania wrote:
      KeepOnKeepingOn wrote:
      I mean yeah, Carl's death really irked me, but I'm fine with Henry's. He existed to be a plot device to catalyst the Whisperer War. He had reason to die. Carl didn't.
      Henry had amazing development with every character, especially Daryl and i saw him becoming such a major point of the show in the later games and filling the alot of Carl's roles as Daryl is for Rick rn. Who do we have now? We have a lonely Daryl, Lydia, Carol and a soon to be gone Michonne. Its not enough. It could only work if Carl or Henry was still alive.

      From the looks of it, it seems Daryl will form a father-daughter relationship with Lydia, so it can still work.

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    • Wwefan2 wrote:
      Kapitalgermania wrote:
      KeepOnKeepingOn wrote:
      I mean yeah, Carl's death really irked me, but I'm fine with Henry's. He existed to be a plot device to catalyst the Whisperer War. He had reason to die. Carl didn't.
      Henry had amazing development with every character, especially Daryl and i saw him becoming such a major point of the show in the later games and filling the alot of Carl's roles as Daryl is for Rick rn. Who do we have now? We have a lonely Daryl, Lydia, Carol and a soon to be gone Michonne. Its not enough. It could only work if Carl or Henry was still alive.
      From the looks of it, it seems Daryl will form a father-daughter relationship with Lydia, so it can still work.

      Not nearly as well. Lydia is better than her comic counterpart but a far cry from being as likeable and interesting and full of potential as Henry was.

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    • Wwefan2 wrote:
      Kapitalgermania wrote:
      KeepOnKeepingOn wrote:
      I mean yeah, Carl's death really irked me, but I'm fine with Henry's. He existed to be a plot device to catalyst the Whisperer War. He had reason to die. Carl didn't.
      Henry had amazing development with every character, especially Daryl and i saw him becoming such a major point of the show in the later games and filling the alot of Carl's roles as Daryl is for Rick rn. Who do we have now? We have a lonely Daryl, Lydia, Carol and a soon to be gone Michonne. Its not enough. It could only work if Carl or Henry was still alive.
      From the looks of it, it seems Daryl will form a father-daughter relationship with Lydia, so it can still work.

      The show is reaching Fear The Walking Dead level of stupidly shooting themselves in the foot and purposely destroying their own, amazing potential everytime they get it with Henry's death . Carl died, it was an unecessary tragedy but they made it work and saved the show and gave it new life and potential and new characters and interesting arcs with our remaining ones. Rick left, they made it work again and managed to mold Henry and Daryl into some of the best characters on the show, they had tons of potential with the new movie series and the new arcs they could make with henry and daryl and their relationship and problems going on around them. Yet for no fucking reason they shot themself in the foot in a way that reminds me of the biggest autistic flaws of gimple and nicotero, and they killed Henry. What the fuck is wrong with them? The show keeps coming back from rough, unnecessary events and becoming full of potential and amazing again and they literally sabotage it. Kang needs an amazing season 10 or i hate her nearly as much as nicotero and gimple.

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    • Carl doesn’t really... have an arc anymore in the comics. He just kinda bangs Lydia. 191 is the most relevant he’s been in forever. I can’t remember anything he did between then and now.

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    • KeepOnKeepingOn wrote:
      Carl doesn’t really... have an arc anymore in the comics. He just kinda bangs Lydia. 191 is the most relevant he’s been in forever. I can’t remember anything he did between then and now.

      They made Henry much more important and active than Carl was even during his Lydia arc in the comics, I could see them making him far more important than comic Carl in later issues, kang has shown she is good at this, especially with henry.

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    • True.

      And then Henry kinda dieded.

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    • KeepOnKeepingOn wrote:
      True.

      And then Henry kinda dieded.

      Also, we've been entirely robbed of the possibility of Morgan ever reuniting with an older, even more badass Henry. I swear this show wants to wind up a shitty, hollow shell like Fear the Walking Dead. Like the way i feel about this is Negan in S7E16, "Universe sends you a sign and you shove your finger right up its ass!" Like ever since season 8 everytime the main series gets great potential and the future looks very bright for it, they autistically, purposely sabotage it on purpose, no matter how hard they worked to get it that way. This is something fear the walking dead has been doing fucking religously ever since the second half of season 2.

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    • Well Henry's death isn't gonna kill the show. Season 9 improved the show greatly (I literally dare someone to tell me Kang's writing is worse than Gimple's in S8) and I think Henry's chances of survival would've been improved if Morgan had a chance of coming back to the main show. But Morgan's story appears to be done and there seems to be no plans of him ever returning or having an arc on the main series. He's stuck in Fear now, sadly.

      I'd say that really the only thing that irks me about Henry's death is it's yet another dead-child-story-arc for Carol.

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    • KeepOnKeepingOn wrote:
      Well Henry's death isn't gonna kill the show. Season 9 improved the show greatly (I literally dare someone to tell me Kang's writing is worse than Gimple's in S8) and I think Henry's chances of survival would've been improved if Morgan had a chance of coming back to the main show. But Morgan's story appears to be done and there seems to be no plans of him ever returning or having an arc on the main series. He's stuck in Fear now, sadly.

      I'd say that really the only thing that irks me about Henry's death is it's yet another dead-child-story-arc for Carol.

      Its not a killshot to the show but it is a mortal, gushing wound that requires immediate assistance, damage control, new characters, new interesting arcs, and hard recovery and rehabiliation to survive. It could absolutely wind up killing the show, it all depends on how they handle season 10 and how long they exist without a young male protege to take his place.

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    • ...... so basically what you're saying in Henry was the crutch of Season 9, with Season 9 being the crutch of the show due to it's rebirth -- essentially meaning Henry was the crutch of the show? I'm not following.

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    • KeepOnKeepingOn wrote:
      ...... so basically what you're saying in Henry was the crutch of Season 9, with Season 9 being the crutch of the show due to it's rebirth -- essentially meaning Henry was the crutch of the show? I'm not following.

      Henry and his development and relations with other characters, the much needed filling he gave to a hole in the show was essentially a keystone in the show's rebirth. Knocking out a keystone is a mortal wound to a structure that requires immediate fixing.

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    • I mean I get that, and I agree that if you eliminate key components of a show then you're basically shooting yourself in the foot. But I disagree, Henry may have had one of the biggest arcs this season, but he was ultimately cannon fodder in the long run. It was the romance between Carl and Lydia in the comics that started the chain reaction to the Whisperer War, and I think Henry's death signifies the show cares more about the war than it does about the Romeo and Juliet couple who started it.

      I won't deny Henry did have one of the most important roles in the entire season and he definitely filled the void left by Carl for the time he was around. However, in terms of the show, he was deemed completed and ready to die, and in terms of the fanbase, a fuck load of people were also pretty happy to see him die. I'm not saying the fan hatred of his character attributed to his death, I'm saying he was a character on the negative side of both spectrums.

      That being said, I... just disagree. I think it's a pretty bold move of them to kill off Carl 2.0, but while they could've given Henry and Lydia unique things to do instead of having sex and not giving a shit about the conflict... we wouldn't really be losing a whole lot with the death of Henry. Carl doesn't really have a whole lot in the comics right now... but let's assume 191 gets adapted and Henry is in Carl's shoes. Who is he talking to? Carol? Ezekiel? Daryl? Who then proceeds to take the bullet from Sebastian?

      He would've faded into the background yet again, and if the show were to try and stray from the comics even more, it would've run the bigger risk of making Henry a very much more forced character and he would've likely lost all the development he had this season. He had an arc and died before it could be completed -- but he also died before it could be tampered with and butchered.

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    • I got mad when both of them were killed off. Honestly why kill off Henry when the actor for Ezekiel is most likely leaving the very next season? I would have just taken out Ezekiel but kept Henry.

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    • I think it has been said above, but at times the main show has reached Fear level of stupidity. I have felt that, at times, certain characters in Fear had forced character development. To me, both Carl and Henry's deaths were to force (unnecessary) character development in other characters. Both characters were getting better and more interesting. Both deaths were unnecessary as far as I am concerned.

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    • No one here honestly knows anything about why both these characters died. Carl died because Rick needed an emotional setback during the war. The emotional setback caused Rick to switch to killing all the Saviors. Carl's death and the letter he left is what caused Rick to spare Negan. They couldn't just have Rick decide to spare Negan out of nowhere. They needed the emotional setback of Carl's death to reach the end point.

      As for Henry his death fits become the pike deaths needed to impact as many people as possible. Henry dying impacts Ezekiel, Carol, Daryl and Lydia. If Ezekiel died it'd only impact Carol and Henry. Ezekiel isn't a villain he's just trying to do what he believes is best. Everyone might not like it but that's why Ezekiel is a good character he's flawed. As of right now we don't know if Khary is leaving it's just speculation based on the Comics.

      Anyone who believes Carl was better on the show is just a dumb Carl fan. Fans hated Carl and Chandler for years, yet after he dies everyone comes out of the woodwork mad. The fact that it took Riggs a year to get a new show just proves how shitty of an actor he is. Just because in the Comics Carl is the legacy doesn't mean the show has to do the same. Just because Kirkman said he liked tv Carl doesn't mean anything, for all we know he could of been paid to say that. People who honestly believe Andy left because of Chandler are stupid. Andy wanted to leave the show back in season 4. He wouldn't risk his career and leave a show he's making big money on for a kid.

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    • JCB95 wrote:
      No one here honestly knows anything about why both these characters died. Carl died because Rick needed an emotional setback during the war. The emotional setback caused Rick to switch to killing all the Saviors. Carl's death and the letter he left is what caused Rick to spare Negan. They couldn't just have Rick decide to spare Negan out of nowhere. They needed the emotional setback of Carl's death to reach the end point.

      As for Henry his death fits become the pike deaths needed to impact as many people as possible. Henry dying impacts Ezekiel, Carol, Daryl and Lydia. If Ezekiel died it'd only impact Carol and Henry. Ezekiel isn't a villain he's just trying to do what he believes is best. Everyone might not like it but that's why Ezekiel is a good character he's flawed. As of right now we don't know if Khary is leaving it's just speculation based on the Comics.

      Anyone who believes Carl was better on the show is just a dumb Carl fan. Fans hated Carl and Chandler for years, yet after he dies everyone comes out of the woodwork mad. The fact that it took Riggs a year to get a new show just proves how shitty of an actor he is. Just because in the Comics Carl is the legacy doesn't mean the show has to do the same. Just because Kirkman said he liked tv Carl doesn't mean anything, for all we know he could of been paid to say that. People who honestly believe Andy left because of Chandler are stupid. Andy wanted to leave the show back in season 4. He wouldn't risk his career and leave a show he's making big money on for a kid.

      How was Carl better in the comics? He was strange, annoying, self absorbed, bratty, edgy and unlikable until like 5 issues after Carl's demise in the tv series, clearly on purpose to atleast give us a half decent living Carl. Tv Series Carl had so many more interesting lines and arcs and was a much better character. Also i agree some of them dont realize it but i do. I absolutely see the narrative usage of Carl and Henry's deaths but if you ask me it wasn't worth it or necessary. I would have preffered the comic's idea of randomly having Rick be dead set on sparing Negan simply to prove civilization is here once more and to move forward without this happening again absolutely. Losing Carl, especially the well agreed upon including the so called "paid" kirkman, better counterpart of his character was not fucking worth it just so Rick sparing Negan would make sense as a development and the cause would seem apparent and not random. And Losing the great potential in the newly developed Henry just so the pike victims would put more pain, anger, and heartbreak into more main characters was also not fucking worth it. I do not get what this show wants. But if Kang doesn't do some serious damage control there is honestly nothing left to hope for anymore, besides Rick's survival.

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    • Henry dying is not a big deal dude. Don’t act like this needs “immediate damage control” sheesh. :|

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    • KeepOnKeepingOn wrote:
      Henry dying is not a big deal dude. Don’t act like this needs “immediate damage control” sheesh. :|

      Yeah it really is and it the series really does. He was essentially the glue and keystone holding the heart and future of newly ressurrected and revived series together and I don't see how more people don't realize that. What do we have without him? Broken characters that had only gotten so great and likeable as major characters with revived character arcs because of Henry mainly. The only main who's revived arc wasnt linked to others with a focus on Henry was Michonne who is leaving so.

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    • KeepOnKeepingOn wrote:
      Henry dying is not a big deal dude. Don’t act like this needs “immediate damage control” sheesh. :|

      Killing Henry was so idiotic as it essentially severs the characters new links and destroys and wastes their new developments. Having a shocker like Carol die would have been better as it would have heartbroken Daryl, henry, Ezekiel, made Lydia guilty and Ezekiel could have blamed Daryl and Henry's actions for it. and the forced, "breakup" of Carol and Ezekiel could have been Henry deciding to leave his miserable father at the Hilltop for blaming Daryl and shutting him out because of grief. Henry could have went to the Hilltop with Lydia and Daryl. Then later i think it would serve good for the story for Lydia to die during the war, sacrificing herself and accidentally being killed by a whisperer trying to kill Henry. Mirroring the scene where Henry gets injured protecting Lydia in S9.

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    • KeepOnKeepingOn wrote:
      Henry dying is not a big deal dude. Don’t act like this needs “immediate damage control” sheesh. :|

      What they did to Henry and their narrative usage of it is essentially what they did to Travis on Fear the Walking Dead. Killed off basically to force story development that was not needed to get where it was going and to force a somewhat boring, yet not YET bad   female character (Madison/Lydia) into a much more prominent role and developmental place. (forcing her to be the leader and protagonist/forcing Lydia to be the one to develop a close paternal/family relation with Daryl) It will end the same way, it will be completely forced and boring as Madison was. Daryl and Henry were great on screen, their development and arc together were not completed whatsoever. Henry could have became Daryl's new brother of sorts that Merle/Rick formerly were. Henry was very likeable and reminded us of S8, likeable Carl, despite what idiots say and had so much potential. The whisperer war  and Lydia becoming a bigger character than her comic counterpart could have happened without Henry's unneccesary demise and loss of potential, Madison could have been a bigger character and they could have gotten to the ranch like they were all literally on the helicopters, including Travis to do, without the best character and deserving protagonist on the series aka Travis, dying. (Though I would have preferred Madison dying, if any main should be killed to force developments in a main character, it should be Madison, since she was unlikeable and could force even more grief and development in a main character with so much potential aka Travis, Madison had no potential and i hated her and her forced development and feminist bullshit story arc with a passion.)

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    • Me: -says one thing-

      You: -replies three times-

      Agree to disagree then.

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    • KeepOnKeepingOn wrote:
      Me: -says one thing-

      You: -replies three times-

      Agree to disagree then.

      I made many very good points. Please read my replies actually.

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    • Kapitalgermania wrote:
      KeepOnKeepingOn wrote:
      Henry dying is not a big deal dude. Don’t act like this needs “immediate damage control” sheesh. :|
      What they did to Henry and their narrative usage of it is essentially what they did to Travis on Fear the Walking Dead. Killed off basically to force story development that was not needed to get where it was going and to force a somewhat boring, yet not YET bad   female character (Madison/Lydia) into a much more prominent role and developmental place.

      Travis was killed off because the actor was scheduled to film Avatar sequels.

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    • Wwefan2 wrote:
      Kapitalgermania wrote:
      KeepOnKeepingOn wrote:
      Henry dying is not a big deal dude. Don’t act like this needs “immediate damage control” sheesh. :|
      What they did to Henry and their narrative usage of it is essentially what they did to Travis on Fear the Walking Dead. Killed off basically to force story development that was not needed to get where it was going and to force a somewhat boring, yet not YET bad   female character (Madison/Lydia) into a much more prominent role and developmental place.
      Travis was killed off because the actor was scheduled to film Avatar sequels.

      No he wasn't. It was a purely story driven choice, same with Carl. The showrunner confirmed it.

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    • Kapitalgermania wrote:

      KeepOnKeepingOn wrote:
      Me: -says one thing-

      You: -replies three times-

      Agree to disagree then.

      I made many very good points. Please read my replies actually.

      Well that was passive aggressive.

      I did read your replies. As long as they were. I understand where you’re coming from better now. But I still disagree.

      So let’s agree to disagree. Please don’t make it your goal to change my mind.

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    • Kapitalgermania wrote:

      JCB95 wrote:
      No one here honestly knows anything about why both these characters died. Carl died because Rick needed an emotional setback during the war. The emotional setback caused Rick to switch to killing all the Saviors. Carl's death and the letter he left is what caused Rick to spare Negan. They couldn't just have Rick decide to spare Negan out of nowhere. They needed the emotional setback of Carl's death to reach the end point.

      As for Henry his death fits become the pike deaths needed to impact as many people as possible. Henry dying impacts Ezekiel, Carol, Daryl and Lydia. If Ezekiel died it'd only impact Carol and Henry. Ezekiel isn't a villain he's just trying to do what he believes is best. Everyone might not like it but that's why Ezekiel is a good character he's flawed. As of right now we don't know if Khary is leaving it's just speculation based on the Comics.

      Anyone who believes Carl was better on the show is just a dumb Carl fan. Fans hated Carl and Chandler for years, yet after he dies everyone comes out of the woodwork mad. The fact that it took Riggs a year to get a new show just proves how shitty of an actor he is. Just because in the Comics Carl is the legacy doesn't mean the show has to do the same. Just because Kirkman said he liked tv Carl doesn't mean anything, for all we know he could of been paid to say that. People who honestly believe Andy left because of Chandler are stupid. Andy wanted to leave the show back in season 4. He wouldn't risk his career and leave a show he's making big money on for a kid.

      How was Carl better in the comics? He was strange, annoying, self absorbed, bratty, edgy and unlikable until like 5 issues after Carl's demise in the tv series, clearly on purpose to atleast give us a half decent living Carl. Tv Series Carl had so many more interesting lines and arcs and was a much better character. Also i agree some of them dont realize it but i do. I absolutely see the narrative usage of Carl and Henry's deaths but if you ask me it wasn't worth it or necessary. I would have preffered the comic's idea of randomly having Rick be dead set on sparing Negan simply to prove civilization is here once more and to move forward without this happening again absolutely. Losing Carl, especially the well agreed upon including the so called "paid" kirkman, better counterpart of his character was not fucking worth it just so Rick sparing Negan would make sense as a development and the cause would seem apparent and not random. And Losing the great potential in the newly developed Henry just so the pike victims would put more pain, anger, and heartbreak into more main characters was also not fucking worth it. I do not get what this show wants. But if Kang doesn't do some serious damage control there is honestly nothing left to hope for anymore, besides Rick's survival.

      You obviously know nothing about writing. Carl's behavior in the Comics makes since because he was a young kid. Realistically a kid Carl's age in the Comics would act annoying, self absorbed, bratty and try and be edgy. That is normal behavior for boys at that age range. Carl on the show has zero memorable lines of dialogue and his only interesting arc was after he killed the kid at the prison. If you want my honest opinion I don't find either version of Carl good or interesting. The way you write a comic and the way you write a tv show is completely different. Due to that a death was needed for kick to spare Negan and Carl was the only character that fit. You might not think it was stupid but no matter what they would have died. Kang isn't just doing what she wants she's doing what has to be done for the writing of the show.

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    • right im gonna be honest chandler riggs was leaving anyways but i feel like he should have lived until the pike scene and maybe been on the pikes instead of henry would have made it more interesting and many fans would be pissed and want alpha dead

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    • Sharkdarkness wrote:
      right im gonna be honest chandler riggs was leaving anyways but i feel like he should have lived until the pike scene and maybe been on the pikes instead of henry would have made it more interesting and many fans would be pissed and want alpha dead

      1. He wasn't leaving anyways. He signed for like three more years, was told he had a lot coming up, bought a house in Georgia to be closer to filming, was planning on doing college on the side so he could keep working on the show, and suddenly got the news that he was dying in two or three episodes.

      2. I dunno if this counts as a thread revive.

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    • oh i read up that he was leaving because of college

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